California Prop 8

damn it >___> this is just terrible.... i know i shouldn't be talking because i come from a country with no freedom at all.... but this is just terrible... i had hopes that people were going to allow gay marriages or rights because honestly nobody should have a definite reason to really be against it. I told Cherry i would ask some people "why are you against gay marriage" and i was right... pretty much what most answered were
a) "because they weird, look how they dress"
b)"men should be with women, gay people should stay in their damn closet" and
c)"god only allows marriage between a man and a woman"
(i honestly wanted to punch all of them and i regret even asking).

I'll be honest as of right now my sexual orientation is undefined, but i honestly think that whatever path i choose to take i would really want to have equal rights, if by chance i fall in love with someone of my same sex.

think one of the reasons why admen. 2 was approved in Florida was because of our high latin population,( i hate to admit it but even my parents are against gay marriage....and it always makes my blood boil when they bash it), most latin people stick with tradition and religion and agree with person A... i know that because all my life i've been discriminated in my own country because of stupid stuff like my way of speaking, the fact i like anime and games, and ridiculous stuff like that.
 
Fr0dus Maximus said:
They passed on 8. This really pisses me off.

Cherry, let's get started on building Rapture.
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just feel a mix of sadness and rage right now...i feel kinda sick, it's hard to breathe but i think that doesn't have to do with this >_>

i support rapture
 
Fr0dus Maximus said:
Cherry, let's get started on building Rapture.
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Just as long as I get to be the megalomaniac who goes crazy and ruins everything. :lol

Seriously though, Prop 8 passing was by far the worst result of this election. They shouldn't even let people vote on a right that is constitutionally guaranteed (it was determined to be by the California state government). I'm all for democracy, but dammit, constitutional rights should not be left up to the whim of the populous.
 
All I can say is that those who opposed Prop 8 are not taking it lightly and making it known that this is flat out wrong. I know there are going to be some rallies tonight. That should get things started for now. It's going to be fight, but it's winnable.
 
Fr0dus Maximus said:
Would you kindly, give me that position.
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No. I'm Ryan not
his bastard child. Would you kindly doesn't work on me. :lol

And Arkansas just passed a referendum making it illegal for an unmarried couple to adopt. I wouldn't be surprised if a driving force behind the law was the fact that homosexuals wouldn't be able to adopt. >_>
 
Homicidal Cherry53 said:
No. I'm Ryan not
his punk child. Would you kindly doesn't work on me. :lol

And Arkansas just passed a referendum making it illegal for an unmarried couple to adopt. I wouldn't be surprised if a driving force behind the law was the fact that homosexuals wouldn't be able to adopt. >_>
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seriously what the heck >___>????
 
Homicidal Cherry53 said:
No. I'm Ryan not
his punk child. Would you kindly doesn't work on me. :lol

And Arkansas just passed a referendum making it illegal for an unmarried couple to adopt. I wouldn't be surprised if a driving force behind the law was the fact that homosexuals wouldn't be able to adopt. >_>
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Ugh...stuff like that pisses me off. That's ridiculous.
 
Homicidal Cherry53 said:
Just as long as I get to be the megalomaniac who goes crazy and ruins everything. :lol

Seriously though, Prop 8 passing was by far the worst result of this election. They shouldn't even let people vote on a right that is constitutionally guaranteed (it was determined to be by the California state government). I'm all for democracy, but darnit, constitutional rights should not be left up to the whim of the populous.
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So, let's deny the right for someone to vote on something that could deny someone the right to marry. Seems like a double-negative to me. ::)

My opinion? Although I am at the other end of the country, in a way I am glad, and in a way I am disappointed. Let me explain myself before getting the rope:

The institution of marriage is a religious ceremony that is recognized by the state. It is not a state institution that is recognized by religious organizations. So prop 8 (or whatever it is) is in a sense completely meaningless.

As a conservative Christian, I see nothing wrong with the state making an official declaration on something that has already been declared. Yet I also see nothing wrong with state-sponsored "civil unions" that can carry the same benefits offered by the state as a traditional marriage.

Hate me all you want. It's my opinion, and I am entitled to it.
 
Dart said:
So, let's deny the right for someone to vote on something that could deny someone the right to marry. Seems like a double-negative to me. ::)

My opinion? Although I am at the other end of the country, in a way I am glad, and in a way I am disappointed. Let me explain myself before getting the rope:

The institution of marriage is a religious ceremony that is recognized by the state. It is not a state institution that is recognized by religious organizations. So prop 8 (or whatever it is) is in a sense completely meaningless.

As a conservative Christian, I see nothing wrong with the state making an official declaration on something that has already been declared. Yet I also see nothing wrong with state-sponsored "civil unions" that can carry the same benefits offered by the state as a traditional marriage.

Hate me all you want. It's my opinion, and I am entitled to it.
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even though at first this post did strike me in a negative way, this right there is what i've been wondering... sure maybe is not religious by church tradition to let people of same sex marry but i now don't see why state government doesn't allow it, you are indeed right Dart
 
Dart said:
So, let's deny the right for someone to vote on something that could deny someone the right to marry. Seems like a double-negative to me. ::)

My opinion? Although I am at the other end of the country, in a way I am glad, and in a way I am disappointed. Let me explain myself before getting the rope:

The institution of marriage is a religious ceremony that is recognized by the state. It is not a state institution that is recognized by religious organizations. So prop 8 (or whatever it is) is in a sense completely meaningless.

As a conservative Christian, I see nothing wrong with the state making an official declaration on something that has already been declared. Yet I also see nothing wrong with state-sponsored "civil unions" that can carry the same benefits offered by the state as a traditional marriage.

Hate me all you want. It's my opinion, and I am entitled to it.
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I have no problem with marriage being a religious ceremony, it's that even civil unions will not be recognized or allowed in the state. That's where the problem lies. Unfortunately, if you're gay and Christian, you're going to have even a harder time trying to get married. This whole Proposition is just wrong, in the way it's written and the way it's influencing those who are not as educated in the matter.
 
Dart said:
So, let's deny the right for someone to vote on something that could deny someone the right to marry. Seems like a double-negative to me.  ::)
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Yes, deny people the right to deny the rights of others, when it comes to governmental matters.  Individual people can make their own decisions, and deny others whatever they want, but they shouldn't be allowed to deny a right on the national level, through a government that is supposed to be protecting our rights.

The institution of marriage is a religious ceremony that is recognized by the state. It is not a state institution that is recognized by religious organizations. So prop 8 (or whatever it is) is in a sense completely meaningless.
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Marriage was originally a union with no religious implications, and homosexual unions were considered marriages until Constantine I.  The ceremony itself was largely Christian in origin, but the ceremony is already completely legal.  Whether or not the marriage itself should be recognized by the state is the issue.  Given that the religious aspects of marriage are not in question and that gay unions were once considered marriage, why should gay marriages be denied recognition by the government?
 
Yes to same-sex civil unions, and same-sex couples getting all the tax breaks and so forth of heterosexual couples.

No to same-sex marriages. "Marriages" here referring to those performed in a Christian church.


Actually, here's something I've always wondered, and if this comes off as offensive I really don't mean it to, in this matter I am ignorant. Do same sex couples just want to be recognized as equal to heterosexual couples in the eyes of the government? Or do they want their union to be recognized as equal before the eyes of the Christian community? I assume it's the former, but I admit I could be wrong.

I've never really understood why the government has to take an official stance on this one way or the other. To me it seems like its up to the religious organization whether or not they want to perform a same sex marriage. If this "Prop 8" would have gone the other way, would it really matter? Wouldn't the various religious organizations still maintain their policies on the matter, presumably the ones they currently do?

Again, I hope I'm not offending anyone, that's really not my intention. I'm just curious I guess, because I never really understood the motivations, on either side, behind all of this.
 
Wow, this is a hot topic. :) I'll chime in here with some of my thoughts.

Proposition 8 is not about religious freedom. Religious institutions that oppose same-sex weddings will not be forced to perform them. There are already legal precedents. Catholic churches are not required to marry people who had previously gotten divorced. Orthodox Jewish temples are not required to perform weddings between Jews and non-Jews. Both of these institutions are allowed the freedom of their beliefs. If anything, Proposition 8 would result in less religious freedom, because it would force the entire state to conform to one specific religious doctrine.

Proposition 8 is not about education. The Yes on 8 campaign has tried to scare people with horror stories of a couple in Massachusetts who were powerless to stop the school from teaching their child about same-sex marriage. But the laws governing educational content are different in California. They tried to scare people with stories of an elementary school class being taken to a same-sex wedding in San Francisco. But it was their own teacher's wedding, several of the parents went along, and parents who objected were allowed to keep their kids from going. Besides, if you want to keep discussion of same-sex marriage out of the schools, then you control the educational content of the schools. Keeping same-sex marriage out of schools by banning same-sex marriage is like preventing the kids in your neighborhood from having wild parties by burning down all the houses.

Proposition 8 is not about "judicial activism." The California legislature actually passed a bill legalizing same-sex marriage. Twice. Governor Schwarzenegger vetoed it both times, saying he wanted the Supreme Court to weigh in. Well, the Supreme Court weighed in, and the Governator accepted their decision. Proposition 8 is an attempt by the conservative minority to bamboozle the public into declaring some people as less equal than others.

Some helpful links
http://www.noonprop8.com/about/who-opposes-prop-8
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-prop8-2-2008nov02,0,5926932.story
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080918/news_lz1ed18top.html
http://www.bakersfield.com/opinion/editorials/story/581251.html
http://www.reason.com/news/show/129641.html
http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/Marriage_QA.pdf

Additionally, if you didn't already know, this does affect me personally. I am in a same-sex relationship and I live in California. The passing of Prop 8 basically makes me a second-class citizen. I am now prevented from having the same rights as a straight woman.

No matter what anyone tells you, gay rights are civil rights.

Do same sex couples just want to be recognized as equal to heterosexual couples in the eyes of the government? Or do they want their union to be recognized as equal before the eyes of the Christian community?
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I can't speak for everyone, but for me personally, it's the former.
 
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