Competitive Gaming

As was discussed on Episode 8 of World 9-3 by (the incredibly hansom) stealth toilet and (the slightly off-kilter) Mastermario, competitive gaming is showing some momentum and and gaining recognition in the general public. Frodus Maximus is convinced competitive gaming already has broken into the mainstream consciousness, but Mastermario is convinced video games will never be played (and watched) in the same way a sport is. Will competitive gaming ever fill a stadium full of people? Has it happened already? Is it something regional? Will it catch on all over the world? How long will we have to wait before video game players appear on cereal boxes instead of sports stars?

I don't have time to post my opinion on the subject yet (though if you listen to the podcast, you can hear some premature thoughts), so in the meantime I'd like to see some other people's ideas on the issue.

No. That's my short answer. I do believe it will be a niche market, much like bowling or billiards. But you'll never see a professional gamer's ugly mug on a box of Wheaties, or the "world series of gaming" on Fox on Sunday afternoons.

In America it won't be as big as some of the other countries but, it will never be a "niche market". Korea is a prime example of this. Their Starcraft and Warcraft players are like gods over there. They fill stadiums with thousands. Saying competitive gaming isn't mainstream over here in the states it really doesn't matter, do you realize how small the US market for competitive gaming is? Take hockey for example? Is it in the mainstream in the States? No, it more so has to do with regional areas. Which is basically what E-Sports are regional.

EDIT:: There may only be one problem with Competitive gaming for right now. And that is that there are too many different leagues being held all with different rules and such. If you have one major league the gap would shorten tremendously.

Fr0dus Maximus said:

EDIT:: There may only be one problem with Competitive gaming for right now. And that is that there are too many different leagues being held all with different rules and such. If you have one major league the gap would shorten tremendously.

Click to expand...

And I think that's what's going to keep it as a niche market in the US. I think there are too many people in the US that would rather play with their own rules than to follow others. Even if it is for prizes.

But the I believe the question was, is competitive video gaming a sport? Personally, my definition of a sport is a competitive match that takes both physical AND mental prowess to win. Which is why I agree with MM about how professional Poker should not be considered a sport. But again, that's just me.

CreepinDeth said:

But the I believe the question was, is competitive video gaming a sport? Personally, my definition of a sport is a competitive match that takes both physical AND mental prowess to win. Which is why I agree with MM about how professional Poker should not be considered a sport. But again, that's just me.

Click to expand...

I can see it MAYBE being considered a sport...if you include some especially physical Wii games like Wii Boxing. Ever played that? That takes some energy.

Also...I would love to see some articles about these competitions filling stadiums. Not because I don't believe you, I just want to learn more about it because its kind of interesting.

Watching someone play a game can get boring quick. I still don't see the mainstream appeal of professional gaming.

not really an article but, it's a video of what has happened to one league.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuY5qcvE2Yo

Wii games being competitive? I really don't see them being big besides Brawl in Eastern MLG and Evo. DDR, ITG, etc are better choices for those type of games where it is both physical and metal.

@Dart:: It depends on the game itself. A game that is fast like some fighters, shooters, RTS's, sports games, and racers are really fun to watch. But, take a game that is slow just won't work and they aren't fun to watch. It also has to do with Commentary too. If you have a bland commentator it gets boring really fast. The competitive scene is also being held back because most leagues keep on going with Counter Strike for the past 10 years. There needs to be a newer game to come along and get more people into that community. But really, what do you think it would take to get competitive gaming into the mainstream?

EDIT:: @Creepin:: It's not there are too many people wanting to play their own rules. It's moreso that there are too many leagues with their own rules. There hasn't really been one league that has really tried to step-up and try to take another league under it's own.

It has to be more interesting watching people play a video game then it is to watch people play chess or something...but reg sports feel dif and I don't think it will ever be exactly like that.

I think Frodus makes a good point with DDR, a game that combines physical and mental dexterity. DDR can't really be lumped in with other games in this discussion, so when I refer to "competitive gaming" I am referring to the Halos, Smash Bros, counterstrikes, and so on.

I also remember someone once saying video games can never be as enjoyable to watch as a sport because it is difficult to portray the human drama of winning/losing in a video game. As was previously mentioned, it's not much fun to sit there and watch someone move their fingers around. At the same time, it's not really all that entertaining watching a video game character run through a virtual world, because you miss the human aspect of it. I don't know if this problem can be reconciled through a new approach in broadcasting competitive video game matches, but I think it is something that has to be considered if competitive leagues are ever going to really pierce a North American mainstream audience.

I also think that the number of games there are hurt the chances of someone willing to watch other people play. Frodus already pointed out Hockey as a niche market, because in the states it certainly is. A big part of the enjoyment of watching a sport is realizing how skilled and talented athletes are because you have tried to play the sport they are so adept at. Not nearly as many Americans grow up playing hockey as Canadians do, and so Canadians find it far more entertaining than the average American, because they have a point of reference with which they can understand and appreciate the level of competition they're watching. With video games, no one plays any one game for that long, a newer version of it is always only a couple years away. And even then, not everyone plays the same games. I can't appreciate a good battle in Starcraft, but I can tell you when someone in Command and Conquer gets owned. But even if you can't appreciate hockey because you've never played it, everyone has done some physically exerting activity or played team sports growing up, and the athletic competition is a universal reference point.

Until games can overcome the virtual character/human player gap, and build upon a universal appreciation of skilled gaming (as has already happened in Korea with Starcraft) I don't think games can be put on the same level as a sport.

CreepinDeth said:

But the I believe the question was, is competitive video gaming a sport? Personally, my definition of a sport is a competitive match that takes both physical AND mental prowess to win. Which is why I agree with MM about how professional Poker should not be considered a sport. But again, that's just me.

Click to expand...

Gaming may not be physical prowess in the traditional sense of the word, but is the incredible reaction time you need to win in a twitch-based shooter like Unreal for example, not physical prowess? It takes an incredible amount of training, practice, and natural to get as fast as some competitive gaming, so is that not physical prowess, to at least some extent?

Homicidal Cherry53 said:

Gaming may not be physical prowess in the traditional sense of the word, but is the incredible reaction time you need to win in a twitch-based shooter like Unreal for example, not physical prowess? It takes an incredible amount of training, practice, and natural to get as fast as some competitive gaming, so is that not physical prowess, to at least some extent?

Click to expand...

It's very little physical prowess, if any. When I talk about physical prowess, I'm talking about the whole body. Pushing your body and your mind to the limit to win.

here's what you do. go to youtube search in "CGS 2007 (followed by either of these games:: Dead or Alive 4 or Fifa)". Those are prime examples of games that attract attention from non-gamers and even gamers that even played either game. Even though in some Fifa games there really isn't that much scoring it feels like you are watching a true soccer match and it gets really entertaining.

Starcraft isn't really gunna be a breakthrough game for the mainstream. Neither are most shooters. Imagine someone changing the channel and seeing an invasion of Zergs on Starcraft or someone getting shot in Counter Strike. It's games like the fast fighters and sports games like Fifa that are gunna be the ones to do that in the states.

You need to be both physically and mentally fit to compete with the pro's in competitive gaming. You need to physically fit to respond to the quickest movement in all games. You also need to have the mind games to back up your reaction time. Without either you are screwed.

And how can't DDR be grouped together with the other games? It is a video game and is part of E-Sports. Saying it can't is like saying you can't group Football with Soccer in regular sports.

Fr0dus Maximus said:

here's what you do. go to youtube search in "CGS 2007 (followed by either of these games:: Dead or Alive 4 or Fifa)". Those are prime examples of games that attract attention from non-gamers and even gamers that even played either game. Even though in some Fifa games there really isn't that much scoring it feels like you are watching a true soccer match and it gets really entertaining.

Click to expand...

I will have to agree with fighters being pretty exciting to watch. Just watching Street Fighter III: Third Strike Tournaments gets me pumped.

You need to be both physically and mentally fit to compete with the pro's in competitive gaming. You need to physically fit to respond to the quickest movement in all games. You also need to have the mind games to back up your reaction time. Without either you are screwed.

Click to expand...

I have to disagree with the physical part. The most that you train is your dexterity in your hands, unless you're playing a game like DDR, which brings me to your next statement...

And how can't DDR be grouped together with the other games? It is a video game and is part of E-Sports. Saying it can't is like saying you can't group Football with Soccer in regular sports.

Click to expand...

I agree, it's a video game and is built for competitiveness, so it should be grouped together with the others.

So in conclusion, I still don't consider gaming a sport. Games like DDR are probably the closest to being a sport but that's about it. But this doesn't mean that I'm trying to knock competitive gaming as well. If it succeeds to be more than a niche market in the US, awesome. I'll definitely be happy that it did.

CreepinDeth said:

I have to disagree with the physical part. The most that you train is your dexterity in your hands, unless you're playing a game like DDR, which brings me to your next statement...

Click to expand...

You have to be physically healthy to be a competitive gamer. A five-hundred pound coach potato isn't likely to have good reflexes. And athlete, on the other hand, is likely to have great reflexes so you have to be in pretty good shape if you want to be a successful competitive gamer.

@Dart:: It depends on the game itself. A game that is fast like some fighters, shooters, RTS's, sports games, and racers are really fun to watch. But, take a game that is slow just won't work and they aren't fun to watch. It also has to do with Commentary too. If you have a bland commentator it gets boring really fast. The competitive scene is also being held back because most leagues keep on going with Counter Strike for the past 10 years. There needs to be a newer game to come along and get more people into that community. But really, what do you think it would take to get competitive gaming into the mainstream?

Click to expand...

The problem with "professional" gaming is that there are too many games to choose from. In order to be successful, you must "dumb it down a bit" and essentially pick a handful of games to compete with. In every other competitive sport, the arenas change, the teams change, but the general mechanics of the game does not. And that is why people will watch Baseball, football, etc, long before showing interest in professional gaming.

I hope that I am not coming out as hating the idea. I'm taking the realist approach. It wouldn't affect me one way or another if competitive gaming took off intlo a professional realm.

Its not that unlikely to happen though. mf sure nintendo will come up with the idea, lauch a satellite, and put something on their website that will show competitions. And of coarse Sony will follow up with a PS4 .

Fr0dus Maximus said:

And how can't DDR be grouped together with the other games? It is a video game and is part of E-Sports. Saying it can't is like saying you can't group Football with Soccer in regular sports.

Click to expand...

You misunderstand me. I set DDR aside because the arguements I presented as to why videogames won't be considered a sport, either soon or later, didn't apply to DDR. I'm not in any way saying the game can't be considered a sport, if anything I'm saying it's the closest thing to a real sport.

Homicidal Cherry53 said:

You have to be physically healthy to be a competitive gamer. A five-hundred pound coach potato isn't likely to have good reflexes. And athlete, on the other hand, is likely to have great reflexes so you have to be in pretty good shape if you want to be a successful competitive gamer.

Click to expand...

Reaction time has very little to do with athleticism. We're not talking reflexes in someone's knees, elbows, shoulders, and so on, we're talking reflexes in their fingers. To be a competitive gamer (once again, so long as we're not talking about DDR) you actually do have to be a couch potato. Real professional gamers practice eight hours a day; they're not running on treadmills while they practice.

I would be much more willing to accept video games as sports before I'd accept competitive video game players as athletes. I don't think they are, but I also don't think they need that description to validate their competition either.

stealth toilet said:

To be a competitive gamer (once again, so long as we're not talking about DDR) you actually do have to be a couch potato. Real professional gamers practice eight hours a day; they're not running on treadmills while they practice.

Click to expand...

I have only seen a couple good competitive gamers as couch potatoes. Most of them who actually compete in the big leagues (ie:: CGS and WCG) actually are physically fit. That eight hours a day thing only applies to maybe 3-4 times a week and on the other days they either go on with their personal lives, go and do sports, or go to school.

Homicidal Cherry53 said:

You have to be physically healthy to be a competitive gamer. A five-hundred pound coach potato isn't likely to have good reflexes. And athlete, on the other hand, is likely to have great reflexes so you have to be in pretty good shape if you want to be a successful competitive gamer.

Click to expand...

That's an extreme example. Look at the majority of competitive gamers. They are just regular people who don't train their bodies like other athletes. They just train their hands and mind. That's it. So no, you don't have to be in the best shape to be able to compete in video games and to be good.

Just put this way. A person that is more physically fit will have the faster reflexes and better mind set than one which is not.